27 replies to this topic

[EOSHD]

The third and final part of Zacuto's debate provoking documentary on cinematography and cameras is out. Part 3 is to me kind of like Revenging the Revenge because it goes back to a non-creative scientific (empirical) test of the cameras.

They appear in order of cost from the $500 iPhone to the $70,000 Sony F65 and each are treated with the same lighting, similar settings and the same grading to match as closely as possible.

[HellKat]

Although I agree with a number of things you mentioned in your critique of part 3 (in particular, where you talk about endless reminders about the importance of creativity which BTW often look like mantras lacking any sunstance), I think the overall tone of your blog post (and your advices) are not appropriate. Part 3 does not confirm your major leitmotif regarding GH2 - not a surprise, you do not like it.

Here is a piece of advice for you - next time you do what Zacuto did with their overall excellent and amazing effort by its scale and contribution to the filmmaking community, and then we'll see if you are up to the challange yourself.

To finish on a positive note - I respect what you do and check your blog almost every day. Equally, I respect your contribution to the community (even if I sometimes disagree with all your biases). But, man, learn your place.

[moebius22]

Although I agree with a number of things you mentioned in your critique of part 3 (in particular, where you talk about endless reminders about the importance of creativity which BTW often look like mantras lacking any sunstance), I think the overall tone of your blog post (and your advices) are not appropriate. Part 3 does not confirm your major leitmotif regarding GH2 - not a surprise, you do not like it.

Here is a piece of advice for you - next time you do what Zacuto did with their overall excellent and amazing effort by its scale and contribution to the filmmaking community, and then we'll see if you are up to the challange yourself.

To finish on a positive note - I respect what you do and check your blog almost every day. Equally, I respect your contribution to the community (even if I sometimes disagree with all your biases). But, man, learn your place.

So what is your counter argument - at least evil_thought2 had something to say other than an ad hominem and appeal to authority attacks.

[sanveer]

But, man, learn your place.

And, where is "Your" Place, Your Exalted Infinitely Divine One ?????????

[Alex Mand]

It's strange to see how the 7D falls apart in terms of resolution against the other cameras even compared to the GH2. I really disliked the image overall. Well... techonology moves fast these days but is nice to see how good performers, cameras like the FS100 can be.

Now imagine what the BMCC can do with decent resolution and no banding, aliasing and good colours... Zacuto's tests nexts year will be really interesting...

[EOSHD]

Although I agree with a number of things you mentioned in your critique of part 3 (in particular, where you talk about endless reminders about the importance of creativity which BTW often look like mantras lacking any sunstance), I think the overall tone of your blog post (and your advices) are not appropriate. Part 3 does not confirm your major leitmotif regarding GH2 - not a surprise, you do not like it.

Here is a piece of advice for you - next time you do what Zacuto did with their overall excellent and amazing effort by its scale and contribution to the filmmaking community, and then we'll see if you are up to the challange yourself.

To finish on a positive note - I respect what you do and check your blog almost every day. Equally, I respect your contribution to the community (even if I sometimes disagree with all your biases). But, man, learn your place.

Really idiotic comment that does nothing to address the facts.

[EOSHD]

But, man, learn your place.

How about you learn your place? Are you forgetting it is my blog, where do you suggest I put my own personal opinion if not on here? Being offended by what you perceive incorrectly as a bias implies you have certain rights which I've trodden on. Sorry for stomping on your rights over my blog sir!

You don't have any right and I can write what I want.

[tungah]

Although I agree with a number of things you mentioned in your critique of part 3 (in particular, where you talk about endless reminders about the importance of creativity which BTW often look like mantras lacking any sunstance), I think the overall tone of your blog post (and your advices) are not appropriate. Part 3 does not confirm your major leitmotif regarding GH2 - not a surprise, you do not like it.

Here is a piece of advice for you - next time you do what Zacuto did with their overall excellent and amazing effort by its scale and contribution to the filmmaking community, and then we'll see if you are up to the challange yourself.

To finish on a positive note - I respect what you do and check your blog almost every day. Equally, I respect your contribution to the community (even if I sometimes disagree with all your biases). But, man, learn your place.

Wow!
Are high or something?

[PAVP]

I love each and every one of these Zacuto Shootout productions. It has educated me on a lot of things I didn't know. I don't take everything as if it's infallible but rather as part of my continuing education about the field. I'm coming from the Audio side of things as a life long 2nd generation Musician and Sound Engineer. The cameras I own are low cost. GH2, T2i, a couple of Canon Vixia's. So I'm always trying to figure out how to get the most out of my cameras. I'm shocked at how small the difference is between a low end DSLR and top end cameras.

I'm more interested in solutions to the limitations of these low end cameras and the Zacuto Shootout really did help me more clearly understand how to get my camera to give the best image. I now have more confidence in what my camera can achieve with the right lighting, file management and grading. This is EXTREMELY liberating for me and i'm sure many like me who are new to this arena. I would also like to applaud Zacuto, EOSHD and the many blogs and websites that are dedicated to educating film makers and videographers like me.

[nahua]

I think Andrew's analysis of the Zacuto shootout was spot on. I really think it is up to the DP to make the most out of a camera. It doesn't take a genius to know that a $250K camera whips a $700 camera. I'd like to see a DP shootout for 2013, with better DPs. The DPs that did the 7D and FS100 were terrible. And light the scene like a real scene, not like a "demo" or trying to show how little dynamic range a camera has. I think the empirical test would have displayed the dynamic range, so why do that for the creative? In the end this was a great (if too long) shootout, and I look forward to 2013!!

[Joe Santarromana]

Andrew is a man that questions authority which is a good thing cause in the landscape of high industry trying to sell you their wares I find you cant really accept anyone at face value, they will always attempt to swing everything in their favor... because its in their best interest to. I often see posts here where someone is so angry at Andrew and Im trying to understand why they're so pissed and I don't think its because Andrew is wrong its either because Andrew challenges their reality of what they believe is right and/or wrong and the person puts so much emphasis on this information to formulate their identity when a conflicting report is announce they fall into a violent uncontrolled spiral that ends in rage, or if that is not the case they work for or bought into the ideals of the product being challenged and rage to protect their bank accounts or their egos. When I read the comment about "Learning his place" it made my skin crawl. The consumer is King/Queen and decides what products is relevant to us not the swing doctors hired by the corporations or the corporations. Keep questions them Andrew!

[4dbill]

Almost all interviewees talked about telling stories.
Yes, it matters for sophisticated film makers and movie critics, but the mass audience, where the most money comes from, do not care. They want to see boobs, special effects and stupidity -- a quick gratification for investing their money ($12 movie tickets) and time spend watching it (Youtube).
If the exact contest was shot side-by-side with any of the two cameras tested, most audience members are not going to be concerned about what footage is better than another. They do not understand or care about a little noise, burned out highlights or a slight yellow cast.
The general consensus seems to point to the direction that more money you spend on camera, easier and faster it is to turn it around.
It all comes down to money.
Most artists have luxury of time, therefore they can make any of these cameras work (well.. maybe not iPhone). Since their budgets are severely limited, they choose reasonably prices cameras.
Big budget movie makers, on the other hand, need to get things done quickly first time around, therefore they choose the big-boy cameras, minimizing the overall cost.
Having said all that, 7D still sucks compared to GH2. It just tells you what is popular (Canon) isn't necessarily the best for the money. Marketing determines results, not truths.

[Dr. John R. Brinkley]

As far as an "experiment" I think the empirical has use because you need some sort of control to be able to compare the different cameras. However, as others have stated the results will be somewhat obvious. The more expensive cameras look better right out of the box. Having said that, I wouldn't have been surprised if some of the more expensive cameras DIDN'T outperform the more affordable conterparts.

The creative is interesting because you get to see what is possible with the lower end cameras - which is what everyone here is interested in. While that may not make it much of a real experiment, I think it is very important to see what is possible.

[matt2491]

I really like my Canon DSLRs. I also really like my GH2. Different tools for different jobs.

[Germy1979]

Although I agree with a number of things you mentioned in your critique of part 3 (in particular, where you talk about endless reminders about the importance of creativity which BTW often look like mantras lacking any sunstance), I think the overall tone of your blog post (and your advices) are not appropriate. Part 3 does not confirm your major leitmotif regarding GH2 - not a surprise, you do not like it.

Here is a piece of advice for you - next time you do what Zacuto did with their overall excellent and amazing effort by its scale and contribution to the filmmaking community, and then we'll see if you are up to the challange yourself.

To finish on a positive note - I respect what you do and check your blog almost every day. Equally, I respect your contribution to the community (even if I sometimes disagree with all your biases). But, man, learn your place.

Man...it's like bad mouthing Texas. Get your ass shot off over cameras around here...

Yeah they did put in a lot of effort...but damn... Putting on a test like that would not be what i considered a terrible inconvenience..

Using the best technology on the market, working with and interviewing some of the most respected DP's of our time.... Sounds awful.
Which one of us wouldn't jump at the opportunity to do something like this if we we're Steve Weiss? The whole point of this series was to get us all out of the forums and out there in the field. (I'm guilty as hell here on it myself, so don't crucify me:).

It's fun to talk shop on technology. That's all it is. People on Youtube are telling each other to go f--k themselves by the 9th comment over there because the uploader didn't use "smooth" -2 -2 -2 -2 and thus, the test was void.. It's retarded how personal people get over it.

For every negative comment on a camera, there are probably 2 or 3 positives out there somewhere if someone is researching. I have a T2i and a GH2. I've seen just about every negative comment there is on the T2i... But i absolutely love Cinestyle and Magic Lantern. I love the GH2... It's a detail monster and Flowmotion is the best patch i've ever used... But i prefer Canons look sometimes. No forum told me that...

But if it did, i sure as hell wouldn't post 50 pounds of negative on the commenters face... Pretty condescending.

[Axel]

Almost all interviewees talked about telling stories.
Yes, it matters for sophisticated film makers and movie critics, but the mass audience, where the most money comes from, do not care. They want to see boobs, special effects and stupidity -- a quick gratification for investing their money ($12 movie tickets) and time spend watching it (Youtube).

Successful Youtube shorts often don't have a complete story, but the most successful will have some kind of narrational structure, particularly when they are longer than one minute. Only DSLR enthusiasts actually watch impressionistic clips like those from Andrew from start to end. I agree with you in general, but cinema goers surely expect a story. Most of them want to know what's coming, so the story doesn't need to be fresh, they wish to be overwhelmed by the FX, emotional stimulation. This is in order, it's the concept of cinema. Art house audience doesn't like too obviously reassuring stories, that's the main difference.

If the exact contest was shot side-by-side with any of the two cameras tested, most audience members are not going to be concerned about what footage is better than another. They do not understand or care about a little noise, burned out highlights or a slight yellow cast.

You don't need to know about the technical background to sense cheapness. A good storyteller might overcome the doubts of an art house audience, but in mainstream cinema, the cheap tricks that make up video clips for youtube don't suffice. Like an Armani suit compared to an 80 £ suit by Marks & Spencer you know it without thinking. You should read Stu Maschwitz' DV Rebel, where he stresses the importance of signaling production value. Now, since the subtitle of his guide reads Killer Action Movies On The Cheap, it can be mimicked. A little noise, burned out highlights or a slight yellow cast are the technical signs of no budget and must be adressed with care.

What can be said about part two of the shootout is that a very high percentage (in most cases 100) of all the differences can be evened by care. Care is the key. In a big production, a few hundred contributors care about their jobs and deliver professional results. That makes the finished film look phat. But: If you take your time on the set, if you re-light according to the needs of your sensor, and - crucial! - if you don't care about how forgiving your competitor's camera is and how careless he could give, you have good chances. As we all witnessed.

[Germy1979]

Lmao. You guys should head over to provideo coalition.com and read the pissing contest between Steve Weiss and Art Adams in the comments at the bottom. Pretty passionate stuff..

http://provideocoali...ewed_us_all/P1/

[andy lee]

wow that is heated at provideo coalition.com!!

Steve Weiss has a point , he's put alot of time and effort and money into this test,
it's been very educational for all of us ! ............. for Free!!!
he didn't have to do it !
and I think long term it will have inspired alot of people to pick up a camera from what ever price range they can afford to get shooting knowing that their results are not that far off the big cameras if you know what you are doing.

[hmcindie]

Sure. But when you do stuff, you should be open to criticism.

[EOSHD]

The problem with the internet is that our personalities are hidden behind opinions, we are like walking opinions. So people judge one another over their opinion, which is wrong because in real life people judge each other by what kind of PERSON they are. I'm really tired of the personal attacks just because one happens to disagree with someone one said.

Just to pick up on what Steve said over at Pro Video:

"Many people did not like the GH2 if you listen to the comments—me being one of them—I thought it looked to video’ish and over lit. It didn’t capture the nature of the dark moody scene. The scary part is that so many viewers thought the supermarket lighting was attractive."

The GH2 didn't light the scene - if it wasn't dark and moody that is not the fault of the camera. Almost all my natural light shoots with the GH2 have gone for 'dark and moody' and it handles the shadows just fine. I don't think Colt's lighting was 'supermarket lighting', I felt it best matched the scene because of the size of the window and the brightness of the outdoor area, dark and moody made no sense to me.

There you go, so I don't agree with Steve in this instance but I still respect him as a person and what he does with his life. Amazing isn't it, how it's possible to do both. To question, to disagree, is healthy in real life - so I don't see why disagreeing needs to be so destructive when it is a typed statement on the net.